Curse

Chthon · Sep 25, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Recently, I've been tinkering around with the 1/2 sec activation attacks in PvE, basically using that obnoxious JS+FF+DB combo from RA in place of the GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS combo that's dominated PvE for awhile. It feels pretty damn awesome in the field. I was expecting to use this post to announce it's unequivocal superiority at spamming DB's. Then a funny thing happened -- I ran the numbers and it's not superior.

Numbers:

Code:

Assume 33% IAS.
Assume perfect reflexes and timing.

Time Xth DB Hits on current target
			1st DB		2nd DB		3rd DB		4th DB		5th DB
JS+FF+DB		1.5378		4.8678		8.1978		11.5278		14.8578
GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS	2.6334		4.389		6.38900		9.2668		12.1446
GPS+MS+DB		1.7556		3.5112		5.5112		8.38900		11.2668


Time chain is ready for next target after X DB's on current target
			1x DB		2x DB		3x DB		4x DB		5x DB
JS+FF+DB		3.33		6.66		9.99		13.32		16.65
GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS	4.8778		4.8778		6.6334		9.5112		12.38900  if ended on DB
							7.2668		10.1446		13.0224	  if ended on MS
GPS+MS+DB		8.8778		8.8778		8.8778		9.5112		12.38900  if ended on DB

									9.2668		12.1446   if ended on MS

Kill time for X monsters @ 1DB/monster
			1 monster	2 monsters	3 monsters	4 monsters	5 monsters	
JS+FF+DB		1.5378		4.8678		8.1978		11.5278		14.8578
GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS	2.6334		7.5112		12.38900	17.2668		22.1446
GPS+MS+DB		1.7556		10.6334		19.5112		28.38900	37.2668


Kill time for X monsters @ 2DB/monster
			1 monster	2 monsters	3 monsters	4 monsters	5 monsters	
JS+FF+DB		4.8678		11.5278		18.1878		24.8478		31.5078
GFoxS+GFangS+DB+MS	4.389		9.2668		14.1446		19.0224		23.9002
GPS+MS+DB		3.5112		12.38900	21.2668		30.1446		39.0224

As you can see, JS+FF+DB dominates at kicking out DB's only when monsters die on the first DB. (And, confirming the conventional wisdom, GPS+DB+MS dominates pretty much never -- only when there's just 1 monster to kill, or when every monster takes tons of DB's to kill.) I'm somewhat at a loss to explain why JS+FF+DB **feels** so good even though it's producing less DB's. The best hypothesis I've got right now is that the extra attack speed results on better single-target damage, better spikeage, and more adrenaline that translates into a stronger feel. Another hypothesis is that I'm really averaging 1 DB per monster and just am not totally aware of it.

Penny for your thoughts.

Thenameless Wonder · Sep 25, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Yeah, um Im good at math and stuff but I am stumpted at what you wrote. !.!

What are the periods used for? A replacement for commas in damage output? Oh, it serves as a decimal point to state number of secs between each chain. Sometimes I have these stupid moments ~.~. Very nice work.

FoxBat · Sep 25, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Aside from unblockability, why wouldn't you just do JS-FF-DB-MS for best of both worlds? The real question is whether you can come up with a better elite than MS.

Jaigoda · Sep 25, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Jagged>FF is generally superior for a few reasons. First, it has a significantly faster attack speed. I'm not going to try and do calculations, but the attack rate should be just under 2 attacks per second, as opposed to MS>DB's ~1.2/1.3 attacks per second. That makes big buffs like SoH even more OP. Second, you have a faster recharge rate as well as simply getting to DB faster in the first place because of the half-sec attacks. Supposedly someone did some tests and on MoD Jagged>FF>DB had marginally less DPS than MS>DB, but that's not considering switching targets and the fact that even small buffs get multiplied by a large amount (I'd say Barbs, which should be somewhere in almost any party, should be enough to push Jagged>FF past MS/DB's DPS).

Oh, and the free elite slot is nice, too.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 25, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Free elite spot -seems- good until you realize that assassins don't have many other elites that would go good in a build like that :x

xxx wraith xxx · Sep 25, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

good elite is fox's promise imo. But addind mobius with jagged/FF/DB should work fine 2

Bobby2 · Sep 25, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Try Jagged-Exhausting-MS/DB for lols.

dfscott · Sep 25, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I like having Temple Strike as my elite for bosses and stopping healers.

Chthon · Sep 25, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Jagged>FF... has a significantly faster attack speed. I'm not going to try and do calculations... That makes big buffs like SoH even more OP.

I'll do them for you.

The precise figures accounting for start-up times and excluding the remainder of the final cycle after DB goes off are in my first post. To generalize what cycle times are going to look like without those details:

JS+FF+DB is limited by the cycle time on FF, which, assuming a 33% IAS, is (.5*.66) + 3 = 3.33. JS & DB have time enough to activate and recharge within that window. You can also fit 2 auto attacks. That's 6 hits in 3.33 sec, for ~1.8 hits/sec.

After it gets started, DB+MS is limited by the recycle time on MS, which, again assuming 33% IAS, is (1.33*.66) + 2 = 2.8778. DB has enough time to activate and recharge (even if MS doesn't recharge it) during that window. There's enough time to fit 1 auto attack. That's 4 hits in 2.8778 sec, for ~1.4 hits per sec.

That's where the great single-target damage is coming from. Presuming you've got SoH, Barbs, Asura Scan, etc. all going on, the extra hits add up to quite a lot.

Quote:

Second, you have a faster recharge rate as well as simply getting to DB faster in the first place because of the half-sec attacks.

I thought that too, but it's not the case. Please see the figures from my first post. JS+FF+DB gets to the **first** DB faster, but it's strictly slower at churning out DB's thereafter.

Quote:

Supposedly someone did some tests and on MoD Jagged>FF>DB had marginally less DPS than MS>DB

I don't know about anyone else, but I did that and that was my finding. I suspect that with better reflexes/timing, it could go ahead on single-target DPS. It should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The real question is whether you can come up with a better elite than MS.

Ain't that the $64,000 question?

Here's some candidates:

Locust's Fury. On average, it should double one of those two auto attacks per cycle.
Flashing Blades. Passive defense, plus offense. "Offense, how?" you ask. Spam SY! and you should get lots of aggro, which translates into lots of damage from Flashing Blades.
Temple Strike. Utility dazed and blind for dealing with problem foes.

snaek · Sep 25, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

moebius strike shines in randomway; imo moebius strike is to sins as spiteful spirit is to necros

the sin really can do without any elite at all and barely gimp himself...moebius is just there mostly because there really aren't too many other good options. i mean..what's stopping you from taking js+ff+db...+ms?

BlackSephir · Sep 26, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Fox's Promise for JS, FF, DB because monsters piss me off when they refuse to die.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 26, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

why not GFS/Wildstrike then :/ Slightly less damage, but unblockable, and removes stances. Problem solved.

dfscott · Sep 26, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

why not GFS/Wildstrike then :/ Slightly less damage, but unblockable, and removes stances. Problem solved.

Because w/o MS, GPS takes forever to recharge.

RadaArashi · Sep 26, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

I took both JS->FF-DB and GPS-DB->MS to Master of Damage and was doing about 5 DPS less with JS->FF-DB, but I believe the gap widens when the foe is below 50% and MS pops in.

I prefer JS->FF as well, I'm pretty tired of Moebius, it makes me feel like I'm running a different build even if its the same Death Blossom spam concept. Furthermore you're able to bring a new elite and there's several choices.

There's Fox's Promise for when you encounter heavy blockage like in Arachni's Haunt, you can choose between this or a Golden Fox, Wild Strike, Shattering Assault build for that (because the dungeon has both blocking enchants and stances).

There's Flashing Blades which gives you some more AoE but I'd prefer Critical Defenses myself. You have also Temple Strike if you need a source of Daze (although a technobabble thunderclap Ele can do this better). Wastrel's Collapse or Aura of Displacement grants you a shadowstep.

As for non assassin elites, for the Warrior elite there's Skull Crack for another source of daze or Victory is Mine if your heroes have a condition heavy setup.

If you're willing to give up "Save yourselves!" (if say there's a Imbagon in your group) there's some other elites you could try out if you wanna try something different (not necessarily better), like Melandru's Resilience, Smoke/Spike Trap for fun. Unyielding Aura for a hard rez or Martyr + Assassin's Remedy for a condition cleansing engine.

Chthon · Sep 26, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadaArashi

I took both JS->FF-DB and GPS-DB->MS to Master of Damage and was doing about 5 DPS less with JS->FF-DB, but I believe the gap widens when the foe is below 50% and MS pops in.

Nope. Under a 33% IAS, MS cycles in 2.8778 and DB also cycles in 2.8778. The only thing MS triggering the recharge does for you is change your chain from "...MS, auto, DB..." to "...MS, DB, auto..." No effect on overall DPS.

Bobby2 · Sep 26, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As you can see, JS+FF+DB dominates at kicking out DB's only when monsters die on the first DB. (And, confirming the conventional wisdom, GPS+DB+MS dominates pretty much never -- only when there's just 1 monster to kill, or when every monster takes tons of DB's to kill.) I'm somewhat at a loss to explain why JS+FF+DB **feels** so good even though it's producing less DB's. The best hypothesis I've got right now is that the extra attack speed results on better single-target damage

It may 'feel so good' because in comparison to Golden Fox -> Wild/Fang, the road to Blossom is a lot shorter. Almost as short a route as GPS, without the horrific downtime even though it costs an extra slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

better spikeage

Sorry, I have to ridicule Jagged because it's my job. But given enough buffs, I can see where you're coming from with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

$64,000 question

I'm willing to give it a go.

CS 9+1?
Dagger 12+1+1
DA 9+1?

Jagged-Fox-Blossom-CritEye-IATS!-Scan-CritAgility-AP

I've run something like this before, just with other attack skills. Back then there was no point in trying to match a Moebius sin at Blossom spamming, but apparently that's changed...

Scythe O F Glory · Sep 27, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Free elite spot -seems- good until you realize that assassins don't have many other elites that would go good in a build like that :x

Uuuuuurrrrrrsssssaaaaaannnnnnnnn!!!! People underestimate the power of having 2 skill bars. For example, you are in an Asuran area with those pesky Krait Arcanoss's, blinding you out of your mind. Switch to the bear and blow them up!

And yeah in PvE stuff usually dies before I get the chance to use MS, so JS-FF-DB is the best. Sometimes I dont even get to use DB in that chain...

BuKeNeng · Sep 27, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

JS-FF-DB-Scan-CritEye-CritAgility-CritDefense-Way Of the Assassin

Added dps from WOTA and some defense from critical defense when facing nasty mobs.

syphonus · Sep 27, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuKeNeng

JS-FF-DB-Scan-CritEye-CritAgility-CritDefense-Way Of the Assassin

Added dps from WOTA and some defense from critical defense when facing nasty mobs.

I'd rather take SY than Crit Def. But yeah, WotA makes this ridiculous. perfect e-management and damage off your freaking nut.

BlackSephir · Sep 27, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Taking WoTA with with Crit Agi is p pointless unless you suck at covering enchants and it's getting stripped constantly.